The Right Opinion
The New York Times' Obsession With Mormonism
Doing the Obama campaign's dirty work for them.
As the election campaign moves closer to November, President Obama and his media allies will be seeking subjects other than Mitt Romney's business credentials to use against him. It is virtually certain one of those subjects will be Romney's Mormon religion. To that end, the New York Times has devoted several articles to the subject, even as -- once again -- the president's 20 year association with Rev. Jeremiah Wright remains largely below the radar.
"Just as Ronald Reagan deployed acting skills on the trail and Barack Obama relied on the language of community organizing, Mitt Romney bears the marks of the theology and culture of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints," writes Times columnist Jodi Kantor before noting that Mr. Romney declined to be interviewed for the piece. Kantor then proceeds to establish the idea that Romney is extremely dogmatic, attempting to emphasize criticisms that undoubtedly resonate with the Times' liberal readers. "Mr. Romney's penchant for rules mirrors that of his church, where he once excommunicated adulterers and sometimes discouraged mothers from working outside the home," writes Kantor. "He may have many reasons for abhorring debt, wanting to limit federal power, promoting self-reliance and stressing the unique destiny of the United States, but those are all traditionally Mormon traits as well."
Those so-called Mormon traits sound remarkably like traditional American values, but Kantor manages to frame them in an entirely different light. "Every presidential candidate highlights patriotism, but Mr. Romney's is backed by the Mormon belief that the United States was chosen by God to play a special role in history, its Constitution divinely inspired," she writes. She then quotes Philip Barlow, a professor of Mormon history at Utah State to deride Romney's "squeaky-clean persona" as "too plastic, the Ken side of a Ken and Barbie doll," according to the professor.
Kantor also lays the groundwork for future attacks on Romney if he decides to go on the offensive against Barack Obama in the religious arena. After noting that Romney "frequently spoke about obeying authority, the danger of rationalizing misbehavior and God's fixed standards," she cautioned that "many also see a gap between his religious ideals...and his political tactics." Tony Kimball who served as Romney's executive Church secretary serves up the "obvious" explanation. "I have absolutely no idea how he rationalizes it," said Kimball. "It almost seems to be the ends justifying the means."
Another Times piece by David Leonhardt takes a not-so-subtle swipe at Mormonism as well. First, he notes that a study by the Brookings Institute indicates that Romney's religion isn't likely to hurt him at the polls in November. Yet Leonhardt also notes that a Gallup poll cited by the Brookings authors reveals that "[O]nly a hypothetical gay candidate (32 percent) and a hypothetical atheist candidate (49 percent) fared worse than the Mormon candidate."
The Times' Jim Rutenberg illuminates Mormonism's "first families," whose historical descendants "have formed a financial bulwark and support network for Mr. Romney at every important point in his political career," and who "are tied to businesses with robust agendas in Washington...and have something to gain by having a friend in the White House." The implication is clear: Romney is little more than a crony capitalist hiding behind a patina of religious legitimacy.
The Times brings a racial element to the mix as well. First the obligatory swipe. Black Mormons have joined the Church, despite its "turbulent history of excluding people of black African descent," writes Susan Saulny, who then proceeds to reveal that, despite being Mormons, black Church members prefer Barack Obama for president. Yet the breadth of Saulny's survey regarding that preference is laughable. Included in the piece is a boilerplate Democratic talking point as well. "My problem with Romney, politically, is that he cannot relate to the common man," said professor Jerri Harwell. "I'm afraid of what would happen to the economy given his frame of reference." She also contends that Romney "hasn't even worked in years."
In "Gentle Dissent in Mormon Church on Gay Marriage," times columnist Jack Healy touts the "vanguards of a new movement of Mormons challenging their church's staunch opposition to homosexuality," adding that "the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints played a pivotal role in financing and supporting a ballot measure that outlawed same-sex marriage in California," and that "gay and straight Mormons are making increasingly vocal calls for church leaders to reconsider their stance on gay marriage and welcome openly gay congregants back into the church." Conveniently omitted was the fact that Californians of all stripes approved Prop 8 banning gay marriage by a 52-48 margin -- meaning the issue transcends Mormonism.
Ross Douthat's Times column, "Playing the Mormon Card," notes that attempts by the Obama campaign to present Romney as an outsider due to his religion could prompt charges of bigotry, and that reality presents a "dilemma" for the White House. Douthat, one of the few conservatives writing for the so-called paper of record, reveals where the administration's media allies are likely to go, noting that "the White House probably needs the media to play the Mormon card for them," and that "there's no way to tell the Mormon story comprehensively without bringing up issues (polygamy, race, the Book of Mormon's alternative pre-history of the Americas) that highlight the distance between the Latter Day Saints and other forms of American Christianity." Douthat points out the most likely way exploiting anti-Mormon bigotry will unfold:
[T]he Obama campaign's best-case scenario involves a wave of theoretically evenhanded coverage come August and September -- newsmagazine cover stories on Mormon theology, 60 Minutes specials on L.D.S. history, pieces about Romney's own family tree -- that end up reminding undecided voters of the things that they find strange and alien about the Republican nominee's faith.
Yet the overall problem with the New York Times' seeming obsession with Mitt Romney's religion isn't the discussion of religion in general, or Mormonism in particular. A candidate's religion is certainly fair game. Rather it is the grossly disproportional coverage of Mormonism relative to the coverage of Mr. Obama's religious background, and the way any discussion of both is framed.
The same newspaper that has no apparent problem plumbing the depths of Mormonism is apparently aghast that Obama's relationship with racial arsonist Jeremiah Wright might be re-visited. A piece titled "G.O.P. 'Super PAC' Weighs Hard-Line Attack on Obama" characterizes the attempt to draw attention to Wright as "one of the most provocative campaigns of the 'super PAC' era," further noting that they obtained a copy of the plan "through a person not connected to the proposal who was alarmed by its tone," and that the plan itself "serves as a rare, detailed look at the birth of the sort of political sneak attack that has traditionally been hatched in the shadows and has become a staple of presidential politics."
In another column, the Times reverts to a motif employed in 2008. First, despite the fact that Barack Obama was a member of Wright's church for 20 years, was married by Wright, and had his children baptized by the Reverend, the Times assures readers that "Mr. Obama's campaign advisers said the American people had largely dismissed the questions about his birth and about links to his former pastor." This is a transparent attempt to conflate any questions about Wright with an attempt, as columnist Michael D. Shear puts it, "to revive the long-discredited assertion that Mr. Obama was not born in the United States." Shear claims the "Romney campaign has kept a considerable distance from the anti-Obama fringe," implying that questions about Wright's racism and Obama's birthplace are equally off the wall.
A Times column by Charles M. Blow starts out relatively innocuously, speaking about the recent controversies surrounding the president's stance on gay marriage, and his administration's attempt to force Catholics to violate their beliefs and provide contraception to Church employees. But by the end, Mr. Blow's intentions are clear. After citing all of two anti-gay pastors from North Carolina for their homophobic remarks, Blow contends that that this "level of hate keeps religious extremism fresh in the minds of voters even if it's not on the lips of candidates. In the end, it is likely to drag down the Republican brand more than lift it." Rev. Wright's well-documented racism, bigotry and anti-Semitism and its effect on the "Democrat brand"? Nowhere to be found. Extremism is a one-sided affair.
Through this series of articles (and others as well), the overall strategy of the New York Times becomes as subtle as a sledgehammer. Virtually any aspect of Mormonism and Mr. Romney's relation to it are fair game, while any discussion of Mr. Obama's religious background becomes the stuff of conspiracy theorists, crackpots, and racists on the "fringe" of the American political landscape. No doubt this is only the beginning of an effort by the Times to do its part in presenting the "theoretically evenhanded coverage" of Mormonism described Douthat, even as president Obama's religious associations remain above similar examination and coverage.

45 Comments
Doktor Riktor Von Zhades in Western KY
Thursday, July 19, 2012 at 8:58 AM
I am not that big on Governor Romney, so in November I will once again vote holding my nose. However, the man has the same traditional morals and views on government as do I.
Those on the left, seem to equate religious beliefs with perfection of being. They are very far off the mark. The fact that many of us believe in God, and a Savior, does not mean we're perfect, in fact, quite the opposite is true. We realize our imperfection but seek God's forgiveness, which He freely gives if we confess our sin.
At the very least Governor Romney stands for something, while the left stand for nothing.....
Gordon in Boise
Friday, July 20, 2012 at 12:59 AM
It's been said that if you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything. Explains a lot about the left in general.
Dajian in MA
Sunday, July 22, 2012 at 1:38 PM
It is said that if your candidate is a congenital and unapologetic liar, his supports are equally situated.
Dajian in MA
Sunday, July 22, 2012 at 1:40 PM
You are very insightful. He stands for not only one thing, but. Any positions, all of which contradict each other. If you cannot see this, you have earned the rewards of your intellecticide.
wjm in Colorado
Thursday, July 19, 2012 at 10:07 AM
Better to vote for someone who embraces the Christian ideals than for someone who embodies the ideals of the devil.
SCJo in seneca, sc
Thursday, July 19, 2012 at 10:54 AM
Why doesn't the MSM ever discuss the fact that Harry Reid and other members of Congress are also members of the Latter Day Saints church? Sounds like so much hypocrisy when there are influential members of Congress who aren't so considerate of their American constituency and refuse to work for the common good.
wjm in Colorado
Thursday, July 19, 2012 at 11:54 AM
If it weren't for double standards, liberals wouldn't have any!
Ken in Dayton, OH
Thursday, July 19, 2012 at 1:47 PM
The above-cited so-called "journalists" are an embarrassment to their profession, as well as the "educators" and mentors who spawned them. They are very accomplished propagandists, however.
Richard Ryan in Lamar,Missouri
Thursday, July 19, 2012 at 4:54 PM
Miz Harwell apparently forgets or chooses to ignore that Obama has NEVER worked. Also, I wasn`t aware that anyone of intelligence even reads the Times.
Gina in Coral Gables
Friday, July 20, 2012 at 1:03 AM
Barry has done a terrible job running our country, however Romney's Mormonism should definitely be considered fair game and disliking a cult like the Mormon church isn't bigotry. Mormonism is radically set apart from Christianity. The whole weird ritual underclothing, baptism for the dead, secret temple rites, the bogus book of Mormon, the false and backward teachings of their church prophets. The LDS church founding prophet, Joseph Smith a polygamist and convicted fraud, was supposedly presented with two golden tablets by the Angel Moroni in upstate New York. The Golden tablets were written in "Reformed Egyptian", a language which no linguist had ever heard of. Joseph Smith translated these magic plates using a seer stone in the bottom of a hat, and put his face in the hat to view the words written within the stone, he then published the translation as the Book of Mormon. The whole fairy tale doesn't work on so many levels: at this point I would be happy with Bush 41 or even John McCain.
eolsen in Salem, Oregon
Friday, July 20, 2012 at 11:33 AM
Following is the definition of a bigot of which your post is perfect example. Not to mention the fact of the multiple falsehoods therein contained. But reasoning with a bigot is not possible. It has been argued that bigotry should be classified as a mental illness. Anyway here is the definition: a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance
Gina in Coral Gables
Friday, July 20, 2012 at 11:48 AM
"Not to mention the fact of the multiple falsehoods therein contained"
I'm guessing you're a Mormon -- no? The peculiar people are very protective of their Faith, but they should realize that its insularity, secrecy and very unconventional beliefs will constantly make it the subject of extreme skepticism and ridicule -- lying is another part of Mormonism's deceptive and mainstream tactics. The Mormon culture, its doctrine and tenets, include lying for the lord and Mormons like Romney see situations where lying is justified. The Mormon church attempts to put forth a media-friendly image, putting the Church in the best possible light, while it consistently tries to hide and completely change the subject when anyone outside the church tries to discuss the very unusual and ugly polygamous past of the Mormon church -- Nothing new here eolsen.
Dwight Rogerws in Las Vegas
Friday, July 20, 2012 at 5:00 PM
Mormons don't believe in "Lying for the Lord." This is something you don't find in Mormon teaching or literature nor do you hear it from the pulpit. You do hear it repeated in anti-Mormon circles like an old wives tale. It is hearsay not fact.
Dwight Rogerws in Las Vegas
Friday, July 20, 2012 at 4:46 PM
Charles William Johnson has also shown that Egyptian words appear in multiple New World native languages including Mayan dialects, the Southwestern United States, and the Gulf coast. These include Taino, Quechua (Runa Simi), Purépecha, and native languages in Louisiana.
The Book of Mormon continues to make a serious impression on non-LDS scholars. As early as 1966 Near Eastern scholar William F. Albright, though not a believer in the Book of Mormon, wrote a letter in response to an anti-Mormon critic, noting that Joseph Smith probably could not have learned Egyptian from scholars of his day, yet included some authentic Egyptian names in the Book of Mormon. "It is all the more surprising that there are two Egyptian names, Paanch[i] and Pahor[an] which appear in the Book of Mormon in close connection with a reference to the original language being 'Reformed Egyptian.'" (William F. Albright to Grant S. Heward, Baltimore, Maryland, July 25, 1966, as cited by Tvedtnes, 2001.)
Gina in Coral Gables
Friday, July 20, 2012 at 8:29 PM
The Book of Mormon continues to make a serious impression on non-LDS scholars. So did Mickey Mouse. Why I can appreciate your vast knowledge regarding the peculiar people. The whole fairy is a complete farce on Multiple Levels. I'm guessing you're on of the many LDS folks who live in sin city, where FLDS Mormon Warren Steed Jeff's was captured --Mitt Romney will never discuss his religion because it would politically destroy him -- Fiction is fiction, no matter how many times your told it is true Dwight, Mormonism is not Christian. There's more than compelling evidence that the Mormon Church knowingly and willfully misrepresent the historical truth of their origins of the Church for the purpose of deceiving their members into a state of mind that renders them exploitable and completely brainwashed.
Polygamist Mormon Founder Joseph Smith ran for President as an independent of the so called “army of God” pleading to overthrow the U.S. government in favor of a Mormon-ruled theocracy -- Zero Credibility
Christianity...is a perfect pack of nonsense...the devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century." (John Taylor, third Prophet and President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p.167)
Joseph Smith taught the doctrine of plural and celestial marriage is the most holy and important doctrine ever revealed to man on the earth, and that without obedience to that principle no man can ever attain to the fullness of exaltation in the celestial glory.” (William Clayton, Joseph Smith’s secretary, Historical Record).
TedAnderson in Salem, oregon
Friday, July 20, 2012 at 4:15 PM
You are a bigot and a liar. Keep your religious bigotry and hatred to yourself.
Dwight Rogerws in Las Vegas
Friday, July 20, 2012 at 4:44 PM
Gina, with so much misinformation where shall I begin?
Nephi said: "I make a record in the language of my father, which consists of the learning of the Jews and the language of the Egyptians" (1 Nephi 1:2). A thousand years later the prophet Moroni told us that the Nephite record was written "in the characters which are called among us the reformed Egyptian, being handed down and altered by us, according to our manner of speech." This script, he explained was more abbreviated than Hebrew and it was unique to the Nephites; altered according to their language and unknown to anyone else (Mormon 9:33-34).
“Reformed” is used as an adjective in the Book of Mormon. “Reformed Egyptian” is not the name of the language the Book of Mormon peoples used it is a description of the language they used.
We now know from archaeological evidence, that some Hebrew and Aramaic texts — languages used by the Israelites in Lehi's time — were written in Egyptian characters; sometimes even in modified or “reformed” Egyptian characters. The translation of some ancient Egyptian documents such as Papyrus Amherst 63 had eluded scholars until they realized that while the characters were Egyptian, the underlying text was Aramaic.
Writing Hebrew in Egyptian is just the sort of thing we now know that the ancients did. Not only that but the popularity of writing in one language in the characters of another language centers around the time of Lehi and the beginning of the Book of Mormon. This was not know in Joseph Smith’s time. Another bulls eye for Joseph Smith and the book of Mormon.
Dwight Rogerws in Las Vegas
Friday, July 20, 2012 at 4:44 PM
W.W. Phelps' gives an account of Martin Harris' visit to New York scholar Charles Anthon. Harris took a written sample of the Book of Mormon text to confirm that it was real before investing his funds into Joseph Smith's plan to publish the record. Harris said that Anthon thought it was real but changed his mind when Harris told him that the plates were delivered by an angel. Harris came home convinced that Joseph had a real ancient record and assisted Joseph in the translation.
According to Phelps, Anthon told Harris that the characters were an example of "shorthand Egyptian." This unique phrase wouldn't have been part of Phelps' or Harris' vernacular but was a distinct scholarly expression used by those who were acquainted with different Egyptian cursive scripts such as Hieratic. It seems likely that Anthon, as Harris claimed, recognized that these characters resembled some sort of modified Egyptian script (although he wouldn't have been able to read).
Evidence also demonstrates that other scripts in the ancient world were modified according to the material upon which they were written, and today we know of a number of "reformed," or modified, or altered Egyptian scripts. During Lehi's day, in fact, Hieratic and Demotic were examples of actual reformed cursive Egyptian scripts.
Dwight Rogerws in Las Vegas
Friday, July 20, 2012 at 4:45 PM
Actually linguistic experts continue to find indications of Hebrew and Egyptian influence in the Americas. The Book of Mormon specifically states that the Reformed Egyptian was a result of modifications the Nephites made to their language and was unique to them. “Reformed” is used as an adjective in the Book of Mormon, not a Noun. “Reformed Egyptian” is not the name of the language the Book of Mormon peoples used it is a description of the language they used. We don't expect it to be known in other places in the world
Recent scholarly research suggests a possible link between Uto-Aztecan (a family of about 30 Native American languages) and Hebrew. For example, Dr. Brian Stubbs argues for numerous parallels between Hebrew and Uto-Aztecan. As a professional linguist, Dr. Stubbs avoids the pitfalls of amateurs who simply point at similar words between two different languages. As he points out,
Any two languages can have a few similar words by pure chance. What is called the comparative method is the linguist's tool for eliminating chance similarities and determining with confidence whether two languages are historically—that is, genetically—related. This method consists of testing for three criteria. First, consistent sound correspondences must be established, for linguists have found that sounds change in consistent patterns in related languages; for example, German tag and English day are cognates (related words), as well as German tür and English door. So one rule about sound change in this case is that German initial t corresponds to English initial d. Some general rules of sound change that occur in family after family help the linguist feel more confident about reconstructing original forms from the descendant words or cognates, although a certain amount of guesswork is always involved.
Dwight Rogerws in Las Vegas
Friday, July 20, 2012 at 4:45 PM
Second, related languages show parallels in specific structures of grammar and morphology, that is, in rules that govern sentence and word formation.
Third, a sizable lexicon (vocabulary list) should demonstrate these sound correspondences and grammatical parallels.
When consistent parallels of these sorts are extensively demonstrated, we can be confident that there was a sister-sister connection between the two tongues at some earlier time.
A few of Stubbs' many examples are below showing on the left the Hebrew word and it's meaning and on the right the New World word and it's meaning. Stubbs and ather scholars have documented many more examples:
Hebrew-Semitic Uto-Aztecan kilyah/kolyah 'kidney' - kali 'kidney'
baraq 'lightning' - berok (derived from *pïrok) 'lightning'
sekem/sikm- 'shoulder' - sikum/sïka 'shoulder'
mayim/meem 'water' - meme-t 'ocean'
These are just a few examples out or many that Stubbs gives.
Dwight Rogerws in Las Vegas
Friday, July 20, 2012 at 4:46 PM
Rhodes Scholar Dr. Roger Westcott, non-LDS Professor Emeritus of Anthropology and Linguistics at Drew University, has made positive comments about Dr. Stubbs' research:
Perhaps the most surprising of all Eurasian-American linguistic connections, at least in geographic terms, is that proposed by Brian Stubbs: a strong link between the Uto-Aztecan and Afro-Asiatic (or Hamito-Semitic) languages. The Uto-Aztecan languages are, or have been, spoken in western North America from Idaho to El Salvador. One would expect that, if Semites or their linguistic kinsmen from northern Africa were to reach the New World by water, their route would be trans-Atlantic. Indeed, what graphonomic evidence there is indicates exactly that: Canaanite inscriptions are found in Georgia and Tennessee as well as in Brazil; and Mediterranean coins, some Hebrew and Moroccan Arabic, are found in Kentucky as well as Venezuela [citing Cyrus Gordon].
But we must follow the evidence wherever it leads. And lexically, at least, it points to the Pacific rather than the Atlantic coast. Stubbs finds Semitic and (more rarely) Egyptian vocabulary in about 20 of 25 extant Uto-Aztecan languages. Of the word-bases in these vernaculars, he finds about 40 percent to be derivable from nearly 500 triliteral Semitic stems. Despite this striking proportion, however, he does not regard Uto-Aztecan as a branch of Semitic or Afro-Asiatic. Indeed, he treats Uto-Aztecan Semitisms as borrowings. But, because these borrowings are at once so numerous and so well "nativized," he prefers to regard them as an example of linguistic creolization - that is, of massive lexical adaptation of one language group to another. (By way of analogy, . . . historical linguists regard the heavy importation of French vocabulary into Middle English as a process of creolization.)....
Gina in Coral Gables
Friday, July 20, 2012 at 7:27 PM
Dwight -- do you happen to be one of the many LDS folks who live in sin city. Isn't that where FLDS Mormon Warren Steed Jeff's was captured?. Romney will never discuss his religion because it would politically destroy him -- Fiction is fiction, no matter how many times your told it is true Dwight, Mormonism is not Christian. There's more than compelling evidence that the Mormon Church knowingly and willfully misrepresent the historical truth of their origins of the Church for the purpose of deceiving their members into a state of mind that renders them exploitable and brainwashed.
Polygamist Mormon Founder Joseph Smith ran for President as an independent of the so called “army of God” pleading to overthrow the U.S. government in favor of a Mormon-ruled theocracy -- Zero Credibility
Christianity...is a perfect pack of nonsense...the devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century." (John Taylor, third Prophet and President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p.167)
Joseph Smith taught the doctrine of plural and celestial marriage is the most holy and important doctrine ever revealed to man on the earth, and that without obedience to that principle no man can ever attain to the fullness of exaltation in the celestial glory.” (William Clayton, Joseph Smith’s secretary, Historical Record)...
Dwight Rogerws in Las Vegas
Friday, July 20, 2012 at 4:47 PM
The Book of Mormon added about 180 new words to the English language when it was published in 1830. Most of these are names of people and places. Now, many of these names have surfaced in ancient document discoveries. When the archive at Elephantine, on the upper Nile River was discovered around 1900 we learned of a group of Jews who left Jerusalem not long before the time of Lehi and settled on the upper Nile river at Elephantine. It turns out that many names and words in the Elephantine archive match and verify the authenticity of the book of Mormon names No one in Joseph Smith’s time could have fabricated those names because Elephantine had not yet been discovered in Joseph Smith’s day and yet archeological evidence discovered long after Joseph Smith’s time corroborates the Book of Mormon.
He then implied that Joseph Smith might have been some kind of "religious genius." Given today's impressive and growing list of authentic Semitic names in the Book of Mormon, it's doubtful that the "religious genius" theory can survive. Joseph Smith was not a religious Einstein--he was a largely unschooled Prophet of God.
Dwight Rogerws in Las Vegas
Friday, July 20, 2012 at 4:50 PM
Some critics of Joseph Smith make fun of how he translated the Book of Mormon.
Actually, Christian scripture has been created in a very similar way. Throughout the Bible there are various ways in which God gave revelation to prophets. These range from visions, angels, hearing the voice of God, God speaking from a burning bush, seeing writing on a wall, writing on a tablet, casting lots, magic rods, magic cups, dreams, and hearing the voice of his Spirit in the heart and mind. I think God can decide for Himself how he wishes to give a prophet a revelation or a translation. Who is man that he should tell God how He can or can’t give a translation?
Nevertheless, the method in which Joseph Smith was given the text of the Book of Mormon, by the gift and power of God and not by man’s learning, is amazingly similar to other Biblical accounts of God giving written material to prophets.
For example, Daniel’s experience of seeing God’s writing on the wall is similar to Joseph Smiths experience of seeing God’s writing on a stone:
“In the same hour came forth fingers of a man’s hand, and wrote over against the candlestick upon the plaster of the wall of the king’s palace: and the king saw the part of the hand that wrote.” (Daniel 5:5)
Moses struck a rock and water flowed out of it. Moses struck the ground and the Red Sea parted.
The Old Testament Joseph had a silver cup which he used to divine (Genesis 44:2, 5).
Dwight Rogerws in Las Vegas
Friday, July 20, 2012 at 4:51 PM
We read, for instance, that Aaron had a magical rod (Exodus 7:9-12). Jacob also used magical rods to produce speckled offspring from Laban's cattle (Genesis 30:37-39). We read that a priest could tell if a woman had committed adultery by seeing if her thigh swelled after drinking a special potion (Numbers 5: 11-13, 21)
The prophecy of John the Revelator, wherein he said that the some would have a white stone which would have writing on it is amazingly similar to what actually happened to Joseph Smith:
“He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.” (Revelations 2:17)
Note that John tells us that “no man knoweth” about the stone and the writing “saving he that receiveth it.” So, of course, critics will doubt and mock.
And, of course, we have what is probably the best known example of a prophet receiving writing from God on a tablet, that of Moses:
“And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God.”(Exodus 31:18) And also:“And the Lord delivered unto me two tables of stone written with the finger of God; and on them was written according to all the words, which the Lord spake with you in the mount out of the midst of the fire in the day of the assembly.” (Deuteronomy 9:10)
Here, God writes words on a tablet, very similar to words being written on a stone. Not much different between a tablet and a stone.
God can give revelation to a prophet in whatever manner He chooses. And He did use a variety of methods, some of which would look like folk magic to us today.
Dwight Rogerws in Las Vegas
Friday, July 20, 2012 at 4:52 PM
Jesus taught that baptism is necessary to enter into the kingdom of God: (John 3:3-5; see also Mark 16:14–16, and Matthew 28:19).
Throughout the book of Acts, baptism is without question the rite of initiation that all converts must undergo. (Acts 2:38; 8:12, 38; 9:18; 10:48; 16:14–15, 30–34; 18:8; and 22:16),
Many countless numbers of people have lived on the earth without the knowledge of Jesus Christ and without the chance to accept His teachings and be baptized. In churches which practice infant baptism babies are born and die without time for the priest to come and perform the baptism. Christians have struggled for centuries to answer the question: what happens to those people? They did not have the chance to be baptized. Are they condemned to hell because they weren’t baptized?
Jesus taught that the dead would hear the teachings of Jesus Christ: “Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.” (John 5:25). The Apostle Peter taught us that this would happen when Jesus visited the spirit world between his death and resurrection: . (1 Peter 3:18-20).
Because of this, the early Christians baptized for the dead (1 Corintians 15:29). Here, the Apostle Paul was reminding Christians at Corinth that the resurrection was a reality and that there would be no purpose in continuing in the practice of baptizing for the dead, like the Christians were then doing, if there was no resurrection.
Dwight Rogerws in Las Vegas
Friday, July 20, 2012 at 4:53 PM
Some argue that Paul was supporting a true doctrine (the resurrection) with a false one (baptism for the dead), but does that make any sense? Imagine that someone who doubts the resurrection goes to his pastor for assurance. The pastor says, “well, the resurrection must be true because the Mormons baptize for the dead and there would be no point in it if there weren’t a resurrection.” The person would not find any assurance in that answer if he did not believe in baptism for the dead. It makes no sense that Paul would try to assure the Christians in Corinth that the resurrection was real by citing a false practice as proof.
The “THEY” to whom Paul refers are the apostles under Cephas (Peter) and James. “They” means that THEY, the Apostles and the Christians, were practicing baptism for the dead. Read the verses leading up to the above quote. Paul says: "For I am the least of the apostles...Therefore whether it were I or THEY [the other apostles; see verses earlier in the same chapter], so we preach, and so ye believed" (1 Corinthians 15:1-11). So when Paul says “Else what shall they do,” they means the other Apostles and Christians.
Most credible scholars who look at 1 Corintians 15:29, favor a meaning of vicarious baptism for the dead. (Michael F. Hull, Baptism on Account of the Dead (1 Cor 15:29): An Act of Faith in the Resurrection (Atlanta: Society of Biblical Literature, 2005), 8 and 11 n. 14. See Gordon D. Fee, The First Epistle to the Corinthians (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1987), 766; and Jerome Murphy-O'Connor, "'Baptized for the Dead' (1 Cor 15:29): A Corinthian Slogan?" Revue biblique 88 (1981): 532.)
Dwight Rogerws in Las Vegas
Friday, July 20, 2012 at 4:53 PM
Additionally, we know from historic records and research that the early Christians did believe in this practice. As John A. Tvedtnes has noted:
“...historical records are clear on the matter. Baptism for the dead was performed by the dominant church until forbidden by the sixth canon of the Council of Carthage in A.D. 397. Some of the smaller sects, however, continued the practice. Of the Marcionites of the fourth century, Epiphanius wrote:
“In this country—I mean Asia—and even in Galatia, their school flourished eminently and a traditional fact concerning them has reached us, that when any of them had died without baptism, they used to baptize others in their name, lest in the resurrection they should suffer punishment as unbaptized.” (Heresies, 8:7. As Quoted in John A. Tvedtnes,"Proxy Baptism," Ensign (February 1977), 86)
Christian communities that were very widespread and endured for a significant amount of time engaged in this practice.
Dwight Rogerws in Las Vegas
Friday, July 20, 2012 at 4:54 PM
Two early Christian theologians also affirm Paul’s teaching that first century Corinthian saints practiced vicarious baptisms,.
Tertullian, in the late second to early third century took it upon himself to define the Christian faith (in effect, delineating a standard for determining heresy). In one of his earliest works, On the Resurrection of the Flesh, Tertullian discusses baptism for the dead and the community at Corinth. After quoting 1 Corinthians 15:29 he states: "Now it is certain that they adopted this (practice) with such a presumption as made them suppose that the vicarious baptism (in question) would be beneficial to the flesh of another in anticipation of the resurrection.” (Tertullian, On the Resurrection of the Flesh 48, in Ante-Nicene Fathers, 3:581.)
Tertullian, using the phrases vicarious baptism and flesh of another frankly acknowledges that the Corinthians engaged in the practice under the belief that it would benefit their dead.
Epiphanius (AD 320-403), who was a bishop, mentions a tradition that this custom was obtained among the Cerinthians (Haer., 28:6). And Chrysostom (AD 347-407) states that it prevailed among the Marcionites. And all of these groups were considered heretics by the early Roman Catholic Church. The radical Cerinthians and the Marcionites were especially energetic baptizers of the dead. The Roman branch of the Church was trying to consolidating its position as the State religion of the Roman Empire and so they discourage these sects, seen as competitors
Dwight Rogerws in Las Vegas
Friday, July 20, 2012 at 4:54 PM
It was around the 4th century according to the records of the council of Carthage (397 AD - 6th canon of that council) when the church forbade any further administration of the practice [Baptism for the dead]. The Synods of Hippo (393) and Carthage (397) voted, after bitter debate, to condemn the practice of baptism for the dead. The Roman opposition to the practice shows that there must have been a significant acceptance of it in other Christian branches.
Interesting to note that as part of their Sacraments, the New Apostolic Church and Old Apostolic Church also practice a form of Baptism for the Dead, as well as Communion and Sealing to the Departed.
Thus, baptism for the dead was banned about four hundred years after Christ by the church councils. Latter-day Saints would see this as one out of a number of excellent examples of church councils altering doctrine and practice which were originally accepted Christian doctrines.
Dwight Rogerws in Las Vegas
Friday, July 20, 2012 at 5:01 PM
Reverand Jeffress said. "And I still maintain there are vast differences in theology between Mormons and Christians."
This seems to be a common view among many Christians and actually they are right to say that there are some major differences, although there are more similarities than differences. However, there are also vast differences between current Christianity and Early Christianity.
If Christianity means “historic orthodox mainstream Christianity” of today then I would agree that Mormonism is not historic Christianity; at least not in every doctrine. Although Mormons have much in common with other Christians Mormons also believe differently than historic Christians in some key areas. But the real questions to ask are 1) What is original Christianity? 2) Is mainstream Christianity of today the same as original Christianity? It turns out that Joseph Smith was right. Mormonism is a restoration of Original Christianity. It is not my intent to criticize Christians of today. However, with all the criticism of Mormonism it is important to notice that in many areas of belief Mormons are closer to original Christianity than are most Christians of today.
Mormons believe in God, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost. Our first Article of Faith states: We believe in God the Eternal Father, and in His son Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost. However “Trinity’ is a word that is not found in the Bible. Nor are the definitions and wording formulations in the extra-Biblical creeds found in the Bible. In 325 AD a council of about 300 (out of 1800 serving) bishops gathered in Nicea at the request of the pagan Emperor Constantine and formulated a creed that tried to reconcile the Biblical statements that there three persons called “God” and yet there was “one” God. They then forced all Christians to accept their solution as “gospel”, with varying results. Theological debates and other councils continued to tweak the concept for centuries which produced additional creeds.
Dwight Rogerws in Las Vegas
Friday, July 20, 2012 at 5:02 PM
Mormons are not supposed to be Christian because we have some doctrinal differences with other Christian groups of today. The foundation for the beliefs of these other groups is the creeds of the 4th. 5th, and 6th centuries and so on.
For example; in the Westminster Confession of Faith, which is a non-Biblical creed, we read that "there is but one God, a most holy spirit, without body, parts or passions," thus denying the resurrected Christ, for if Christ is not risen and we do not believe him when he tells us that he has an immortal body, we can then have no hope of a resurrection (Phil 3:21.)
Contrary to the creeds, the resurrected Jesus taught: "Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and ones, as ye see me have." (Luke 24:39)
From this passage we know that Jesus had his physical body after the resurrection. We also know that when Christ comes again, he will still have his physical body. (Zech. 14:4; 12:10; 13:6; John 20:24-28, Acts 1:9-11; Rev 1:7; 1 Cor. 15:3-8, 12-20, 35-42; D&C 93:33).
It is claimed that Mormons are wrong because they believe in extra-Biblical revelation and scripture. Yet much of Christianity believes in extra-Biblical creeds and councils formulated centuries after the time of Christ and the Apostles. Most of the wording formulations in these creeds cannot be found in the Bible. This is often the excuse used to exclude members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormons) from being Christian. It is well known to historians that Christian doctrine changed over time and across different Christian groups.
Dwight Rogerws in Las Vegas
Friday, July 20, 2012 at 5:05 PM
The enemies of Joseph charged him with fraud in various property conveyances, mostly in behalf of the Church. A succession of court proceedings that extended for nearly a decade examined these claims in meticulous detail. Finally, in 1852, long after the Saints’ exodus from Illinois (so there was no conceivable political or other cause for anyone to favor the Prophet), a federal judge concluded this litigation with a decree that found no fraud or other moral impropriety by the Prophet. (See Dallin H. Oaks and Joseph I. Bentley, “Joseph Smith and Legal Process: In the Wake of the Steamboat Nauvoo,” BYU Law Review [1976]: 735.)
Joseph’s appearance before the judge was not a trial, it was a hearing. No verdict was rendered upon Joseph; he was simply charged for court costs and the case was not pursued further. Joseph was never convicted of any crime. The critics of the LDS church are not forthcoming with this important detail. Instead they imply, or even lie, saying that Joseph was convicted. He was not!
The critics also conveniently neglect to mention that Josiah Stowell testified FOR Joseph as a defense witness at this hearing, and did not believe that Joseph had defrauded him at all. Stowell testified of Joseph's claims, "Do I believe it? No, it is not a matter of belief: I positively know it to be true." The charges were brought by Stowell's family members, who appear to have been worried that Josiah would accept Joseph's religious claims. Stowell himself joined the Church founded by Joseph and remained a faithful member to the day of his death.
Dwight Rogerws in Las Vegas
Friday, July 20, 2012 at 5:08 PM
In the Bible we see where David had three wives, Michal, Abigail, and Ahinoam, - at least two of them concurrently (1 Sam. 18:27; 1 Sam. 25:40-43). In spite of this we see that the Lord appeared unto David (2 Chronicles 3:1) because he was righteous. We even see where God, through the prophet Nathan, gave Saul’s many wives to David (2 Samual 12:8). So God, by His command, does give people plural wives.
In the Bible the Lord does not condemn polygamy but rather, gives instructions on how men are to treat their plural wives. (Deuteonomy 21:15-17), and that these should be wives that will not turn his heart away from God (1 Kings 11:3-4). David and Solomon were condemned, not for having plural wives, but for violated one or more of the above mentioned conditions.
Dwight Rogerws in Las Vegas
Friday, July 20, 2012 at 5:09 PM
David is well-known for his sin with Bathsheba and his involvement in the death of her husband, Uriah. (See 2 Samuel 11:1-27.) Nathan the prophet arrived to condemn David's behavior:
And Nathan said to David...Thus saith the Lord God of Israel, I anointed thee king over Israel, and I delivered thee out of the hand of Saul;
And I gave thee thy master's house, and thy master's wives into thy bosom, and gave thee the house of Israel and of Judah; and if that had been too little, I would moreover have given unto thee such and such things.
Wherefore hast thou despised the commandment of the Lord, to do evil in his sight? thou hast killed Uriah the Hittite with the sword, and hast taken his wife to be thy wife, and hast slain him with the sword of the children of Ammon.
Now therefore the sword shall never depart from thine house; because thou hast despised me, and hast taken the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be thy wife. (2 Samuel 12:7-10)
Nathan here tells David that the Lord "gave thee...thy master's wives." And, the Lord says, through His prophet, that He would have given even more than He has already given of political power, wives, and wealth.
But, David then sinned and did evil in the matter of Uriah. If plural marriage is always a sin to God, then why did Nathan not take the opportunity to condemn David for all his plural marriages which he had entered into prior to Bathsheba? Or, why did the prophet not come earlier, when David was righteous and hearkening to the Lord?
Dwight Rogerws in Las Vegas
Friday, July 20, 2012 at 5:09 PM
Solomon's problem is described:
But king Solomon loved many strange women, together with the daughter of Pharaoh, women of the Moabites, Ammonites, Edomites, Zidonians, and Hittites;
Of the nations concerning which the Lord said unto the children of Israel, Ye shall not go in to them, neither shall they come in unto you: for surely they will turn away your heart after their gods: Solomon clave unto these in love....
Then did Solomon build an high place for Chemosh, the abomination of Moab, in the hill that is before Jerusalem, and for Molech, the abomination of the children of Ammon.
And likewise did he for all his strange wives, which burnt incense and sacrificed unto their gods. (1 Kings 11:1-2,7-8)
Solomon's wives turned his heart away from God, as Deuteronomy cautioned. Nothing is said against the plurality of wives, but merely of wives taken without authority that turn his heart away from the Lord.
Dwight Rogerws in Las Vegas
Friday, July 20, 2012 at 5:10 PM
Hannah, the mother of the prophet Samuel, a righteous woman, was a plural wife. (1 Samual 1:2)
In the Bible we see where Abraham had plural wives – Sarai, Hagar, Keturah and others.(See Gen. 16:3, Gen 25:1,6) Abraham was righteous and God appeared to him at least twice during the time he had plural wives (Gen 17:1, Gen 18:1). Abraham is blessed and God makes His covenant with him and blesses him to be the father of many nations (Gen 17:1-6). God didn’t care that Abraham was a polygamist. Instead, God appears to him and blesses him. Here we see that God not only condoned polygamy but he blessed Abraham for it and it is the means by which Abraham fulfills God’s promise to become the father of many nations.
Righteous Jacob was a polygamist (Genesis 29:21-30, Genesis 30:3-4,9)
Abijah had fortnee wives (2 Chronicles 13:21) and yet he is described as a righteous king of Judah who honored the Lord (2 Chronicles 13:8-12) and prospered in battle because the Lord blessed him (2 Chronicles 13:16-18)
Jehoiada, priest uner King Joash “took for him two wives” (2 Chronicles 24:3). Jehoiada is one who “had done good in Israel, both toward God and towwrad his house.” (2 Chronicles 24:16).
If a righteous king, a righteous priest, Jacob the father of the twelve tribes, and Abraham—the pre-eminent figure of the entire Old Testament—are not condemned or corrected for legitimate plural marriages, it is untenable to claim that a biblical prohibition exists in Deuteronomy.
Dwight Rogerws in Las Vegas
Friday, July 20, 2012 at 5:10 PM
In the New Testament Abraham is called the Father of the Faithful (Galations 3:7,9,29) Even Jesus says that the righteous do the works of Abraham (John 8:39). Abraham’s major work was to be the father of many nations which he accomplished by practicing polygamy with God’s permission.
We see Jesus teaching that those polygamists Abraham and Jacob, along with the other prophets, will be in the Kingdom of God while others are thrust out (Luke 13:28). So, clearly, Jesus thought that polygamists can go to heaven. We see Christ affirming this again in the Parable of the Rich man and Lazarus wherein Jesus tells us that Abraham, that old polygamist, is in paradise while the Rich man is in Hell (Luke 16: 19-31).
Martin Luther taught it: For example, during the Protestant Reformation, in a document referred to simply as "Der Beichtrat" (or "The Confessional Advice" ), Martin Luther granted a dispensation to take a second wife to the Landgrave Philip of Hesse, who, for many years, had been living "constantly in a state of adultery and fornication. The double marriage was to be done in secret however, to avoid public scandal. Some fifteen years earlier, in a letter to the Saxon Chancellor Gregor Brück, Luther stated that he could not "forbid a person to marry several wives, for it does not contradict Scripture." ("Ego sane fateor, me non posse prohibere, si quis plures velit uxores ducere, nec repugnat sacris literis) .
Dwight Rogerws in Las Vegas
Friday, July 20, 2012 at 5:11 PM
Also, the early Christian Church Fathers taught this.
Augustine Even Augustine, regarded by much of Christianity as the most influential Christian theologian, held that polygamy was not something that was a crime before God, but rather a matter that depended more upon cultural biases:
“Again, Jacob the son of Isaac is charged with having committed a great crime because he had four wives. But here there is no ground for a criminal accusation: for a plurality of wives was no crime when it was the custom; and it is a crime now, because it is no longer the custom. There are sins against nature, and sins against custom, and sins against the laws. In which, then, of these senses did Jacob sin in having a plurality of wives? As regards nature, he used the women not for sensual gratification, but for the procreation of children. For custom, this was the common practice at that time in those countries. And for the laws, no prohibition existed. The only reason of its being a crime now to do this, is because custom and the [secular] laws forbid it. (Augustine, "Reply to Faustus 22:47," in Philip Schaff (editor), Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers: Series 1 (Augustine and Chrysostome) (Vol. 1–14) (New York: Christian Literature Publishing Co., 1886–1889), 4:288.)
Dwight Rogerws in Las Vegas
Friday, July 20, 2012 at 5:11 PM
Tertullian “As I think, moreover, each pronouncement and arrangement is (the act) of one and the same God; who did then indeed, in the beginning, send forth a sowing of the race by an indulgent laxity granted to the reins of connubial alliances, until the world should be replenished, until the material of the new discipline should attain to forwardness: now, however, at the extreme boundaries of the times, has checked (the command) which He had sent out, and recalled the indulgence which He had granted; not without a reasonable ground for the extension (of that indulgence) in the beginning, and the limitation of it in the end.” (Kevin L. Barney (editor), Footnotes to the New Testament for Latter-day Saints: Vol. 2, The Epistles and Revelation (2007), 240a)
Dwight Rogerws in Las Vegas
Friday, July 20, 2012 at 5:11 PM
Justin Martyr Justin Martyr argued that David's sin was only in the matter of Uriah's wife, and echoed a common early Christian idea that marriage was a "mystery," or sacred rite of the type which Latter-day Saints associate with temple worship:
“And this one fall of David, in the matter of Uriah's wife, proves, sirs,’ I said, ‘that the patriarchs had many wives, not to commit fornication, but that a certain dispensation and all mysteries might be accomplished by them; since, if it were allowable to take any wife, or as many wives as one chooses, and how he chooses, which the men of your nation do over all the earth, wherever they sojourn, or wherever they have been sent, taking women under the name of marriage, much more would David have been permitted to do this. (Justin Martyr, "Dialogue With Trypho," in 141 Ante-Nicene Fathers, edited by Philip Schaff (Christian Literature Publishing Co., 1886)1:270)
Justin saw the patriarchs' marriages not as corruptions or something which God 'winked at,' but acts with significant ritual and religious power.
If we say that Mormonism and Joseph Smith are false, because of the practice of plural marriage in the early days of the Church, then we must also apply the same standard to the Bible prophets and patriarchs, and the early Christians; they too must be false. This standard even makes Jesus wrong where he teaches that polygamists will be in heaven. It is clearly the standard of judgment that is wrong and not Jesus, the Bible prophets, and the Bible patriarchs.
Gina in Coral Gables
Friday, July 20, 2012 at 8:45 PM
Do you really wonder why Mitt Romney will remain absolutely quiet about his Mormonism? You only need to scratch the surface to see what utter nonsense it is. He'd be laughed out of the election, never mind the humiliation it would bring to the country on the Worlds Stage.
Mormons also lead the nation in the consumption of antidepressants and online porn consumption -- what a combo I guess Utah is a place where depression and unworthiness reaches its maximum density.
"Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the 'wh**** of Babylon' whom the Lord denounces by the mouth of John the Revelator as having corrupted all the earth by their fornications and wickedness. Any person who shall be so corrupt as to receive a holy ordinance of the Gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent" (Mormon Orson Pratt, The Seer, p. 255)
"Other churches are all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt" (Pearl of Great Price, Mormon Prophet Joseph Smith-History 1:19).
Gina in Coral Gables
Friday, July 20, 2012 at 1:22 AM
Romney's Religion is fair game this election because Mormonism stands as the most preposterous religion because it can be proven to be completely false. Most Christians are offended with Mormonism in general with its bizarre brand of spirituality, it's polygamous prophet Joseph Smith and crazy cult like beliefs, that are deeply rooted in lies, fraud, deception, and polygamy. The Mormon church is attempting to put forth a media-friendly image by putting its "Church" in the best possible light, while it consistently tries to hide its very bizarre beliefs, insular mindset and polygamous past --- oh well, maybe Jeb or another traditional Republican will learn from Romney's mistakes and take the oath in 2016.
Stephen Buck in Burley, Id
Friday, July 20, 2012 at 8:51 PM
Dwight in LV Appreciate you informed comments. Gina on the other hand make a lot of unfounded statements which she cannot support. Looks like you shut up her silly half truths.
TC in florida
Sunday, July 22, 2012 at 9:58 AM
Mathew 7 1 “Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
3 “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4 How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.