There was a captivating debate last week between Allie Beth Stuckey, a Christian conservative podcaster, and David French, a professed Christian and “conservative” columnist at The New York Times. Stuckey is well known in part for her book Toxic Empathy. French has become infamous for voicing positions that are contrary not only to the conservative movement but to the ideas of his own pre-Donald Trump past.

Both agreed that empathy, when it leads to acting with virtue and in accordance with biblical truth, is a net good. We should hold our own politicians to higher standards and not be satisfied with corrupt or licentious people in office simply because they share our political views. They both also believe that Candace Owens’s persecution of Erika Kirk is abhorrent.

Where they heartily differ is that French believes kindness, politeness, compassion, and empathy are, in and of themselves, the means by which the Christian community can make inroads in the public square. Stuckey, meanwhile, believes that kindness and empathy without biblical truth are moot.

The two discussed topics ranging from French’s attack on Stuckey in one of his columns regarding her book, to the plight of the pro-life movement, to French’s voting for Kamala Harris, to his assertion that Texas Democrat Senate hopeful James Talarico is a wonderful Christian witness.

Stuckey got French to retreat from his position against her book after she pointed out that she advocates for what he was saying, with the caveat that you cannot mindlessly or immorally empathize and ignore biblical truth. “I don’t disagree that there is value in putting yourself in someone else’s shoes,” she said. “My argument is that feeling so deeply for a person, that because of those feelings you end up affirming sin, validating lies, and supporting destructive policies, that that’s wrong.”

Regarding the pro-life movement, French was adamant that President Donald Trump is the reason for the recent spike in abortions. He argued that abortions had been going down since the 1980s, but after the Obama administration, they began spiking. French believes this is a cultural rebellion against President Trump. It is obviously much more complicated than that, which they proceed to discuss in detail. It was yet another example of Stuckey pointing French back to the truth and to the facts rather than emotion.

Perhaps the most telling moment of the debate was when Stuckey asked French to explain his thinking behind encouraging people to vote for Kamala Harris. French explained that he preferred Harris’s foreign policy ideas — particularly on Ukraine — but that he also considered her the lesser of two evils. Stuckey pointed out that French, who is a lifelong advocate and attorney for pro-life activists and causes, choosing to vote for the virulently pro-abortion candidate was baffling. French did not successfully articulate why Harris was the lesser of two evils, particularly on abortion.

He also had this to say in defense of voting for Harris: “I’m furious at the Republican Party, and I definitely wanted to punish them. I’m furious at the Republican Party because what it did in service of Donald Trump was it took out the pro-life plank in the Republican platform.” However, Stuckey pointed out that she, too, was furious about that, yet she still would never vote for Kamala Harris because she knows how the zealot would have governed on the abortion issue.

As for foreign policy, French believes that failing to support Ukraine will spark World War III because Russia would attack NATO. This position, while not unreasonable, does not take into account the moves being made in Iran and Venezuela, which in turn deter China and expose Russia’s weakness. A President Harris would be ineffective at addressing Russia. Plus, Iran would have a nuclear weapon.

On James Talarico, French insists that his kindness toward others is more important than his actual biblical stances. Being “nice” while pushing heresy is still a road to hell — and worse, it leads others down the same path. The Canadians are nice and polite, but look at where that got them. For example, “free” healthcare — wherein if they cannot treat you, they offer to kill you.

Where French really misses the boat is that he wants to elevate virtues like empathy and kindness without being grounded in biblical truth. However, he does make an interesting point about the leaders we are electing.

French is absolutely right that some Republican officials are morally bankrupt and libertine — Texas Rep. Tony Gonzales, who resigned last week, being a perfect example. The Republican Party is also more than willing to drop the pro-life cause whenever it is convenient for elections. But it is also worth pointing out that French himself is willing to sacrifice the pro-life cause because he dislikes Donald Trump and his cult of “cruel” supporters. Suffice it to say, voting Democrat will not fix what he says is broken.

Democrat empathy, by and large, is feelings without moral action. It is a black square avatar in support of Black Lives Matter, or a “Free Our Girls” social media campaign. If empathy and kindness supersede moral courage and upholding biblical truth, then they are empty sentiments indeed.

Overall, Allie Beth Stuckey won this debate. She really is the gold standard for being a Christian witness in such an avenue. She does not dehumanize, does not curse à la Megyn Kelly, and she defends her positions with kindness but also firmness. She is in the mold of the martyred Charlie Kirk, and it is a treat to listen to her articulate biblical ideas.

Kudos also to David French for going on her show and explaining his positions. This is exactly what the early Americans fought for — to debate ideas, and then let the rest of us make up our own minds based on the arguments.